ezioauditore97

I am interviewing the zany David and Liz Lillie again!

            Any witty/fun quips to start this off?

            Dave:  Sure why not.  I'll start off with a quote from John Cleese: 

'If people can't control their own emotions then they need to start controlling other people’s behavior,' -John Cleese

I hate it when he says things like this, and he needs to stop.   Anyways.  On to the questions!

            A fair bit of time has passed since I last interviewed you and the two of you have taken to Patreon in order to better facilitate the continuation of your series. How better poised are you now to crank out more amazing and lush cartoon tomes with this additional income and any words for your patrons and fans in general on the matter?

            Dave: It's going great!  I'm glad we didn't have it in our early years- that instilled the discipline and the mindset that we needed to focus on delivering.   But at this point, enough people value what we do for the Patreon to work.  For the first time, we can produce without any full or part-time side jobs.   Prelude is back to a weekly schedule, more videos are in the works, the next book is shaping up fast, and we also have a video game in development on the side. 

For those interested, we have a video introducing the Patreon here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVWVvc…

    In Summer 2014 a fire ravaged your apartment complex, but yet the two of you trailed on. It was undoubtedly a difficult time and you have my heartfelt empathy. That having been said such things do happen the whole world over. Do you have any words for those who currently/will deal with such disheartening adversity and having the tenacity and will to persevere throughout life?

    Dave:  It's not so bad the apartment burned down- I mean, it's not like we were in it.   Many people legitimately have it worse- so, to them, I hope my grandstanding helps:

    You've got to appreciate dark humor, be willing to laugh and loosen  up when things are going absurdly, painfully wrong.  Then focus on solutions, and taking action to improve what you can- and don't focus on anything beyond your control.  What's the point? 

    Misery is not debilitating.  Taking it seriously is.  When you stop fretting about being happy, paradoxically, things get easier.  Life isn't about what happens to you, it's about how you deal with it.     

    Or as Liz likes to quote, "When life gives you lemons, paint that shit gold."

            Speaking of tenacity, I respect your commitment to making Dreamkeepers the very best series it can be, but comics do take time. You and Liz have no doubt reached this epiphany a very long time ago, but what are your thoughts on the prospect of Dreamkeepers being your “magnum opus” considering how much longer you have to go? I don’t doubt you’ll finish it for what it’s worth!

            Dave:  I don't know about a magnum opus.  I just want to make the story the way I have in mind- ought to run from 16-22 Volumes, in that range.   We're already on V5, so we're getting there!  I have other stories and projects in the works, too.

            Those who follow you on social media have been aware of your viewpoints on such matters for quite some time, but why do you feel it is so important to speak out against hypocritical and somehow trendy movements that have a worrying hypocrisy and disposition to “silence” dissenting opinions? Why is freedom of speech so valuable to you that you doggedly fight things such as the TPP or certain organizations?

            Dave:  I can't claim to doggedly fight anything.  My activism plateaus with mild, occasional social media whining. 

But I am having a commemorative plaque made up.  

While I don't take any hard political stances, I kinda like freedom of speech.  Nothing reveals bad ideas like airing them out in front of people- an open marketplace of ideas is crucial and nifty.  Admittedly, even this topic wasn't really on my radar until Alison, Karen, and the other honey badgers were fraudulently expelled from the Calgary Comics Expo- for publicly opposing censorship.  Seeing that unfold live on social media- the allegations, the video evidence proving them false, the gaslighting and solidarity of pro-censorship ideologues- that brought the conflict home for me.

I mean, if they can get banned for a decade from conventions - with zero misconduct, just a bad case of the Wrongthink- what's protecting any of the rest of us? 

Memes, I decided. 

Regarding that grand story that’s been out there a while now I think it’s time to delve into some queries on that!

            Firstly, your series certainly has had it’s fair share of jarring material as it stands. Is there anything that even now you might have done differently in retrospect had you the same perspective back then as you do now?

            Dave:  Nope, not really.  I wouldn't even improve the art- I think it's good to preserve the footprints that brought us to our current level.

            As with any story that goes on characters develop a wholly unique personality on their own to the point where they write themselves, which characters seem to have done that particularly well for you?

            Dave:  Namah and Mace spring immediately to mind- Whip, Lilith, Bast...  Karo, Vi.  I don't know, they just do what they want and it all works out.

            You have stated before that the fourth volume is the end of the first act; How is the story currently structured as it stands?

            Dave:  Personally, I favor the five act template.  Every writer has to find what works for them.   You could break stories into the same parts as a pencil- beginning, middle, end.  But that doesn't do much to define what those components are, and what purpose they need to serve in the narrative.  A Shakespearian 5-act structure essentially divides the second act into two pieces with defined purposes, and tacks the denouement on after the climax as the last act. 

            Now for some fun with your myriad of lovable characters!

            Many main characters are endlessly bland and consist of all the same trite clichés. How do you feel Mace is arguably different and how do you approach his older self-balancing out his guild for Paige’s death and his newfound friendships?

            Dave:  Conventions and cliche's aren't always bad- they're just tools.  If I need a hammer, I use it- even if other people have used hammers before.  It's not a snowflake contest.

But Mace is a bit different.  Most protagonists are good at something, skilled, formidable, have some interesting station or mission in life.  Mace is decidedly NOT good at most things, somewhat socially awkward, and arguably the least skilled member of the cast.  I think that's why he's interesting to me- because he has all these challenges, and he does not have the innate ability to handle any of them.  What can he do?

The guilt regarding Paige is there, and comes out occasionally- but there's not much room for self reflection once events pick up.

            Lilith is clearly very precocious, but in the third book she stood up for herself and defied her character type’s trappings. How did you feel putting her through such an intense situation and how do you feel this has helped her become a more rounded character? Alongside that how did it feel showing a palpable disagreement between her and Namah for the first time in Volume 4? Certainly, their relationship is very sweet, but it does make sense that with such disparate outlooks they wouldn’t always agree.

            Dave:  I feel like Lilith has always had the capacity to be formidable, but she's so habitually self effacing that it took a major event to bring it to the fore.   Even so, old habits die hard- and I think the failed negotiations with Namah in V4 reflect a bit of that.  Lilith isn't confident that her persona really *is* formidable, and that lack of confidence naturally led to a challenge regarding her leadership.

            Bast has recently endeared himself to many readers with a particular flash-back scene in Volume 4. Did you always intend for this moment to be at this point in the plot and, plot vault be damned just this once, can you confirm if Ravat was the man in a certain picture frame and the implied tormentor?

            Dave:  Yep, that was Ravat in the picture frame.  We've known Bast's backstory for years and years- but I didn't know where I would reveal it until we scripted V4.  The scene mirrored his backstory, and conveying that fact helped set up his... reaction- later in the book.

            Viriathius has always been such a multi-faceted character; Any remarks on her having now gone full circle from Dock girl to Troika Rebel now that we’ve had a fair glimpse of her older self? Has her popularity amongst the fan base been surprising and how would she react knowing she is *considerably* more popular than Tinsel amongst them?

            Dave:  If she knew she was more popular than Tinsel, she would shrug it off as insignificant.  But internally, there would be a raging torrent of vindication, bitterness, and giddy fireworks.

            Speaking of characters that have grown beyond their original role, are we started to already see that with Vanth? A certain recent Prelude arc was almost entirely dedicated to her childhood struggles you know.

            Dave:  Actually, it's the reverse- I had a role in mind for a character way back during V2 scripting, and it took a few years of playing around for the details of their look and personality to emerge.  So though Vanth was introduced later than the other characters, her role has been integral for some time.

            About the Troika, doctrine-wise what historical organizations are they based on primarily (Looking at you since you’re the history man, Dave)? Beyond the alcohol and strippers, they seem oddly saintly and without giving too much away do you want to give them a little more amorality in the future?

            Dave:  While I enjoy history, it would be a whopping lie to bill myself as any kind of expert.  I have a hodge-podge of vague influences- the secret organization that launched the Boxer Rebellion in China, the French resistance in World War II, along with the German military officers who conspired against the Nazis, early American revolutionaries- but the Troika are a bit different, because in our story they were an outgrowth of an explicitly criminal organization, Scinter's Mark.  In that respect their organization almost bears resemblance to something like the cartel of Pablo Escobar.   Regarding morality, there are definite fracture points latent within the Troika- anything more falls into the Plot Vault.  

            How do you balance out having a few more empathetic Dark Dreamkeeper villains whilst also having a plethora of fun remorseless nightmare villains? How did Tendril come about and. despite himself being disturbing, how do you add humor (and morbid poetry) into him while writing while still keeping him consistent (and worryingly interesting)?

            Dave:  Frankly, I think even the remorseless monsters are relatable, if you're in the right mindset.  Their values and logic are removed from ours- hopefully- but still there.  But the characters who seem to share our values and anxieties- and do horrible things as a result- have a special fascination.

            Liz:  Tendril was a normal angry monster, as you can see in early versions of ‘Tendril’s Demise’, and his poet side and temper emerged because he wouldn't shut up, at all.  His character really did take over.

            Even though there are certainly bits and pieces of each of you amongst all the wonderful characters surely both of you could pin the other as being similar to a character or two? (Dave is totally the awesome and scholarly Nainso in my humble opinion XD)

            Dave:  Wisp was inspired by Liz in college, and I'm partial to Whip- though if I was being accurate, Lilith is probably closest to my baseline personality.  Through publishing I've come to enjoy being extroverted and social, but it's built on a foundation of mousy introversion. 

            And although it is cruel to ask favorites especially when both of you need to dole out love to all of them, do you have any favorites based purely on aesthetics and colors perchance?

            Dave:  I have to stick with Whip.  Liz's favorite:  All the girls- the variety in their colors and attitudes.

            Lastly on the favorites and story stuff as a whole, which character(s) or character bonds have come to mean a lot to you both personally?

            Dave:  Liz has a soft spot for Scuttles and Ravat... They haven't had a lot of screen time, but that's a fun duo.  As for me, I like the dynamic between Igrath and his nieces.  Also hasn't seen a lot of screen time yet, but after what he's been through, I can relate to how protective he feels.

            You have been planning a game for some time and are now putting more active thought into it. Certainly many aspects are works in progress and it’ll be while out, but what design philosophy are you aiming for as a whole and what things are you trying to avoid at literally all costs?

            Dave:  The thing to avoid at all costs:  Dull, repetitive gameplay.  Grinding where the gamer is doing chores they don't really enjoy just to advance to the next stage, so they can grind some more.  Also avoiding:  Microtransactions.  Day 1 DLC.  Skeezy stuff like that.    

            Ed:  There are a number of other gaming sins that we have identified and steer to avoid. For example, out-of-place tutorials and characters that will interrupt gameplay to tell you some incredibly obvious advice. You know, the likes of Navi.

Similarly, another philosophy that we've borne in mind from the start has been simple and intuitive controls and gameplay. If your game plays intuitively, you don't need an annoying fairy or radio voice to tell you to jump over that pit. One of the ways that we aim to accomplish this is with a simple, almost “retro” control scheme, primarily utilising just four directions and two buttons, yet allowing for a huge amount of diverse actions by implementing these controls intelligently.

            Dave:  We want the game, first and foremost, to be fun.  It's being designed as a standalone experience- something people can appreciate fully even if they've never seen the graphic novels.  The main design philosophy is to build challenges that the player has to actively engage with to solve- bringing in puzzles, platforming elements, action, stealth, and tying it all together with a compelling, branching storyline and beautiful graphics.  

And not a storyline comprised of interminable cut scenes:  We want the gamer to literally be playing the story, and tie events to the in-game player choices.

                        What will the game mechanics be like as a whole and how different will each of the main gang’s cast members play out from one another? What merits have your buddy, Ed, and your own engine granted you for the production of this game?

            Dave:  The game will function as a sidescroller, with simple controls. 

            Ed:  The original basis was a 2D platformer with some fighting mechanics, but it has branched out into a few other genres as we've continued to discuss and develop it. There will be plenty of action oriented platformy bits and some epic fight mechanics, but physics and inventory puzzles have become a key component, and a recent addition has been the idea of stealth elements in select parts.

            Dave:  We want the game to play intuitively, yet still give the player lots of variety and options to act upon.  There will be combustible, destructible environments, fluids and water, challenges with multiple organic solutions. 

            Ed:  Basically, the player should be able to resourcefully invent their own approach to any scenario based on the objects and environment provided.

            Dave:  Different playable characters will have different kinaesthetics- heavy, tough, light, nimble...  Ed built the engine from the ground up- it renders lighting in a unique way, which should keep the frame rate high but offer dynamic glows and shadow capabilities- cast in a 2-D animation-style setting. 

            Ed:  What I sought to achieve was to make the graphics look like a page out of Dave's work. One of the most iconic things that strikes me about his style is the varied lighting, so I knew that had to be addressed directly. Unlike the way that most games render lighting, I made this project mix the colours more like the techniques he uses to produce his pages in Photoshop.

            Dave: He's coded three dimensional graphics rendering programs from scratch, and knows more than I could ever learn about optimizing the game to run effectively for users.

But I can draw funny faces.  So.

            Lastly on the game, your story has a very unique vibe of being both joyful and dangerous at the same time. Through what subtle little ways are you hoping to transfer that cartoon charm to a game? A handful of adorable idle animations perhaps amongst other things? Can you throw out a few ideas that are *probably* going to happen in that department like Lilith/Mace doing a particular something cute that would be characteristic of them? Can you perhaps even control the character’s dialogue to see what they would say in AU scenarios?

            Dave:  We'll convey the tone through hopefully every element of the game- but the main vehicle will of course be the characters themselves, and the storyline.  The storyline adds the danger, and good characters will be able to add a dash of fun.  I have a list of idle animations I'd like to make, but they're a second tier priority.  Gotta get the basic motions done first.  As for dialogue, we do have a system in place for characters to share word balloons based on what's happening in the scene, but it's not going to be a full-on AI capable of conversations or anything of that nature.

            Ed:  Although good storytelling is one of our objectives (which falls in Dave's department), and although the dialogue and story will be delivered through the action of the game rather than in isolated cutscenes, it isn't going to be a gameplay mechanic, as it is in RPGs or dating sims. That said, because we do want to grant as much player freedom as possible, we have been dabbling in ways to have the NPCs respond to and interact with players' behaviours. In other words, the player will not make explicit dialogue choices, but rather their actions will dictate how they wish to proceed. And actions speak louder than words, right?

            As for conveying the dangers the characters go through, how are you going to convey damage to both player characters and enemies, and are *all* the player death animations going to be super serious and sad or are certain ones like falling going to be mildly more comedic and be a little briefer? Kind of like how a dramatic and messy end from a Trooper or Nightmare for Mace might rub it in compared to a fall which admittedly happens a lot in platformers and maybe should be brief and respawn you quicker.

            Dave:  It's not set in stone, but we hope to convey damage through animation alone- by showing the characters actually taking more damage, and getting bloodied up.  If at all possible, we're aiming to keep the screen clear of indicators, bars, life meters, that sort of thing.  We want the game to be as cinematic as a sidescroller can get without compromising gameplay.

    Ooh, one last fun question for the night! You are helping with a Kickstarter for Wayward Astronomer by Geo in March and why should people consider backing it? What has the story meant for you and Liz and do you have any favorite elements from the book?

            Dave:  Should you back it?  Read it for free, and if you like it, definitely!  kafelnikov.deviantart.com/ 

It was an amazing read- I was excited seeing a totally new story unfold in our setting, and it helped me realize how much potential Dreamkeepers has.  My favorite element from the book is how dangerous it is- you can't rely on plot armor, at every turn of the page I couldn't be sure what might happen. 

Excellent relatable protagonist, moral gray hazards, bloodshed, peril- good story.  I am really looking forward to feeling a book in my hands.

            Thank you very much for the honor of another interview! I hope to do more when I feel I can substantiate them. Until then keep on rocking Dave and Liz!

            Dave: Thanks for the questions, I hope it makes for a fun read!  8 )


Previous interviews:
David and Liz Lillie interview!
Chu interview
Evan Stanley interview
Windy interview
Tracy Butler interview
Geo interview (TWA spoilers)
Alex Kain interview